Comments on DeYoung, Restless, and Reformed: Martyn Lloyd-Jones: What is an Evangelical? (3)

Thnx a lot, Daniel. Very good tips! TyChOkelebekch...

2009-03-31T11:23:00.000-04:00

Thnx a lot, Daniel. Very good tips! TyChO

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Of course Catholics can be(come) Christians. Marti...

2009-03-12T21:30:00.000-04:00

Of course Catholics can be(come) Christians. Martin Luther in the past and Richard Bennett in the present are two examples. And many others also, though not famous. But what happens is that "my sheep hear my voice" and when anyone in Roman Catholicism repents and finds Christ, that person will come to a point in which he will be burdened with the idolatry of that apostate church.

When someone in Roman Catholicism is saved, the incense, the show, the abomination of the worship of Mary, the denial of the sufficiency of Christ (does not the RCC claims she is necessary for salvation?), the denial of the exclusivity of Christ, all these things will burden such a person and as the Spirit of God works in that person's heart, a righteous anger against such things will naturally appear. This is the point when they criticize the many abominations of the Catholic System and are expelled from "mother church".

Read your Bible and pray to God for guidance and understanding. Trust in God rather than in man, for the traditions of man are unable to save anyone.

Psalm 128:1 Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD; that walketh in his ways.

(This is not about works, this is about the ways of God -> the Grace that was shown clearly in Christ Jesus, for all those that will believe)

Perhaps we will converse again in the future.

odaniel1984:I appreciate your passion and your kno...

2009-03-11T08:55:00.000-04:00

odaniel1984:

I appreciate your passion and your knowledge of Scripture. And although I disagree with you, I respect your position and where you are coming from.

No need to worry about me, I trust in Jesus, and I believe he is the savior of the world. We certainly agree about that.

However, I doubt you and I will come to a consensus as to whether or not Catholics can be Christians; therefore, I think it might be best if we agree to disagree.

Perhaps we will converse again in the future.

Benjamin, this is the first time I visit this blog...

2009-03-10T19:58:00.000-04:00

Benjamin, this is the first time I visit this blog. Please bear with me is the ideas that follow:

Catholicism is an abomination and anyone that loves the Gospel will naturally end up realising the Roman Catholic Church is apostate (abandoned the faith).

The council of Trent declared an anathema (a curse) upon anyone that would affirm that salvation is by grace alone, in Christ alone through faith alone.

And God declared an anathema on those that preach a different Gospel, which applies especially to the Roman Catholic Church:

Galatians 1:6-12
(6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
(7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
(8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
(9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
(10) For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
(11) But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
(12) For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Oh Benjamin, I urge you to seek the Lord until you are sure that you have been forgiven, that you have been born from above. Even if you are inclined to dismiss this call to seek the Lord, please give it a serious thought. In case you are a true believer, in case you are a true convert, it will help you to refine your understanding of the way of salvation, which is helpful when declaring the Gospel to others. In case you are still a stranger to him, it is necessary for you to be "born from above", that is, to be converted to Christ.

Not necessarily you ended up in the wrong blog (first time I visit it, actually) but remember that God ordains all things so that men may seek after him (see Acts 17:27).

Let me suggest you to consider the Gospel. There is a preaching of it below:

http://metropolitantabernacle.org/media/realmedia.ram?id=599&type=video

See, let God be true and every man a liar (Romans 3:4). The Scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35) and we should rather believe what God has said rather than the traditions of man (Mark 7:8-9). I assure you, if you seek after the Lord with all your heart, you will be received:

Mat 7:7-8
(7) "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
(8) For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Orlando, no offense intended, but you don't have a...

2009-03-09T19:16:00.000-04:00

Orlando, no offense intended, but you don't have a complete picture of Catholic doctrine.

All three of your points are either incomplete (half truths) or simply inaccurate.

I would encourage you to read the documents that were the result of the Council of Trent (which was called shortly after the Reformation) as well as the Vatican II documents related to justification by faith and the relationship between faith and works.

And I could just as easily cite several of my own Christian friends who converted from Protestantism to Catholicism and Greek Orthodoxy -- some of whom are now seeking ordination in those churches.

I think I might have stumbled into the wrong blog...All the Catholics I know, all the church history I've read, and all of the Catholic doctrine I've read leads me to believe that Catholics are Christians.

I don't mean to intrude or be inflammatory, but I believe you are completely mistaken.

Benjamin, Regarding cooperating with Catholics for...

2009-03-09T18:19:00.000-04:00

Benjamin,

Regarding cooperating with Catholics for a "good cause", let us see from Scripture:

2 Corinthians 6:14-18
(14) Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
(15) And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
(16) And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(17) Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
(18) And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

A Catholic is an unbeliever in that:

1. He rejects what is clearly stated across the entire Bible: that salvation is entirely by grace (that means, not by any merits of the person being saved). Please see Ephesians 2:8-9.

2. The Roman Catholic Church denies that the justification of the sinner depends entirely upon faith on Christ (and proposes that it depends on the efforts or works of the person). Please note Romans 4:5.

3. Other fundamental departures from the Bible involve the exclusivity of Christ in salvation (the Catholic Church affirms other religions worship the true God, note 1 Corinthians 10:20) and Christ's exclusive role as Mediator (by calling Mary co-mediatrix, observe 1 Timothy 2:5).

The following pdf is a good resource from an ex-Catholic priest that the Lord saved gracefully. So, this man knows the beliefs of that institution, the Roman Catholic Church:

http://www.bereanbeacon.org/articles/Thy_Word_Is_Truth.pdf

Benjamin, it took me a while to understand why Catholics are unbelievers and why genuine Christians must not have fellowship with them (i.e., worshipping together). So, let me suggest you to pray God that He may lead you to the Truth. God bless you,

Orlando

Kevin,Yea, it does clarify things. I suppose I was...

2009-03-07T10:57:00.000-05:00

Kevin,

Yea, it does clarify things. I suppose I wasn't entirely clear.

The kind of ecumenism I'm talking about would be choosing to suspend disagreement on the non-essentials. And what I mean by suspension is simply an agreement to disagree while engaging in joint mission work.

As a concrete example: I think it is entirely possible for a Catholic priest and Protestant pastor to work together at a soup kitchen that feeds the homeless.

Obviously, there are theological disagreements (and perhaps even some quibble about what essentials even are); however, putting those disagreements on the back burner for the sake of doing Jesus' work in the world together seems plausible and even desirable.

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@ aaron:

I think you are right, as long as one qualifies what "divide" means. If you mean we don't worship at the same church because we disagree about baptism, then sure -- obviously we would "divide" in that sense.

However, I would be opposed to "dividing" in the sense that we would somehow identify the other as not part of the same faith, or as somehow inferior because of the disagreement.

In my opinion, that type of division is sinful.

Kevin,What does he mean by "divide"? Because, ce...

2009-03-05T14:29:00.000-05:00

Kevin,

What does he mean by "divide"? Because, certainly if we have strong conviction on baptism, for instance, we should probably go to a church that we agree with on that issue. Without condemning, or quarreling with the other side of such an argument, there is certainly some "division" to be had.

Aaron

Benjamin,What Lloyd-Jones is speaking against is a...

2009-03-05T13:17:00.000-05:00

Benjamin,

What Lloyd-Jones is speaking against is a lowest-common denominator kind of ecumenism. He was a staunch supporter of evangelical ecumenism. But he had no interest in suspending disagreement (even temporarily) with those who did not accept the essentials of the faith.

I hope this clarifies things a bit.

This is why evangelicals are opposed to the ecumen...

2009-03-05T12:35:00.000-05:00

This is why evangelicals are opposed to the ecumenical movement. The movement pays lip service to statements of faith, but is actually based on doctrinal indifferentism.
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I don't mean to be inflammatory, but I don't think you are giving a very fair shake to the ecumenical movement.

I consider myself an evangelical and also part of the ecumenical movement.

I think a much more fair description of the ecumenical movement as I understand it would be:

Christians who come together united in their worship of the one God and their concern for the mission of God's church in the world.

This usually entails a (temporary) suspension of disagreement about doctrinal differences, but it almost always acknowledges that those differences exist.

In short, it's entirely possible to worship and work together while disagreeing with each other over doctrinal issues. That is a far cry, I think, from doctrinal indifference.

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In spite of that point of disagreement, I appreciate your article, and I'd like to learn more about this author/speaker. I also look forward to your analysis.

PS I was tipped off to your blog by Noel, a Riverview pastor. He linked to your blog from his.