Comments on DeYoung, Restless, and Reformed: It's Time for a Formula of Disagreement

Adam, the Catholic Church has been the pillar and ...

2009-09-02T07:46:00.660-04:00

Adam, the Catholic Church has been the pillar and bulwark of error, man-made tradition and empty religion for over 1000 years. The people are not protected by hierarchy or tradition or ritual or men, it is protected by the Word of God. God did not leave us a hierarchy, He left us His Word.

The solution to an error is not to run headlong into another error because it is older.

Pretty much every denomination is going to have to...

2009-08-31T18:12:41.485-04:00

Pretty much every denomination is going to have to deal with issues such as this at some point or another because there is no hierarchy in place that has been protected by the Holy Spirit since the time of Christ, except for the Catholic Church. They are the only Church who will never compromise on issues that concern the natural law: homosexual behaviors, abortion, contraception, etc. Whether you agree with the Catholic Church's teachings or not, they are the undeniable pillar and bullwark of the truth as it says in 1 Timothy 3:15.

Translation: I'm pretty much gonna use this as a stepping stone to push Rome as home.

Pretty much every denomination is going to have to...

2009-08-31T16:00:09.328-04:00

Pretty much every denomination is going to have to deal with issues such as this at some point or another because there is no hierarchy in place that has been protected by the Holy Spirit since the time of Christ, except for the Catholic Church. They are the only Church who will never compromise on issues that concern the natural law: homosexual behaviors, abortion, contraception, etc. Whether you agree with the Catholic Church's teachings or not, they are the undeniable pillar and bullwark of the truth as it says in 1 Timothy 3:15. A beautiful quote by G.K. Chesterton describes what Church we should want to belong to. “I want a Church that moves the world, not one that moves with it.” - G.K. Chesterton
God Bless!

Kevin, This is the tension of all of us as shepher...

2009-08-31T12:02:52.462-04:00

Kevin,
This is the tension of all of us as shepherds- that we can rightly love people where they are and call them into a higher way of true Life- given only through the grace of Jesus.

Tolerance is not holiness but neither can we use that to condone offensive langauge and/or actions (a la Fred Phelps). You have some valid concerns here.

BTW, check out the book, "The Forgotten Ways" by Alan Hirsch since his church has dealt with this issue for years.

www.roseontheright.blogspot.com

Kevin, You refer to 'the historic and misguided Fo...

2009-08-31T09:07:06.848-04:00

Kevin,
You refer to 'the historic and misguided Formula of Agreement', with which I am not familiar. Is there a value to such agreements at all?
The recent events in the Church of Scotland and ELCA have been mirrored here by similar situations in Australia. Almost invariably discussion seems to focus on whatever straw has broken the proverbial camel's back.
As Carl Trueman and others have pointed out, by the time such watersheds are reached the glory has long departed.
The question then seems to be why now, and why over this issue?
Concluding these sorts of Formula of Agreement is always fraught with strife and heartache.
So, should they exist in the first place? Is it the role of one denomination to affirm the Gospel integrity of another when the relationship does not have accountable means for a falling from faithfulness to be challenged?
Within a denominational relationship accountability should exist. (Though many have found this not to be functional)
As you've pointed out isn't their faithfulness to the Gospel as taught in the Scriptures the only authentifying mark any church should accept?

This issue is disturbing. Recently I moved back t...

2009-08-30T22:35:11.632-04:00

This issue is disturbing. Recently I moved back to New Zealand after serving as a youth pastor in United Methodist Church in AL, FL and TX. The UMC in the SE jurisdiction, for the most part remains fairly conservative, compared to other jurisdictions. However, as radical groups infiltrate the church leadership and attack the conservative stance greater pressure is placed to change the church doctrine and discipline guiding church life. Six years ago, Christianity Today published an article that suggested that liberals within evangelical Christianity had hijacked the leadership hierarchy of many of the mainline church denominations. However they over represented their constituency proportionately. The problem simply is that conservative evangelicals did not bother to stand for national leadership positions and gave themselves over to the liberal stand point.

Obviously the ELCA is Lutheran in tradition. Does anybody know to what degree liberals outweigh conservatives in the movement and whether they are proportionate in line with their constituents?

The gospel IS at stake. The very grace of God tra...

2009-08-30T13:39:07.845-04:00

The gospel IS at stake. The very grace of God trains us to "renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in this present age" (Titus 2:12). I have fits trying to go through the exegetical gymnastics that denominations like the ELCA go through to justify homosexuality and ordain openly active gays to the ministry of the Word.

Bonhoeffer said that "cheap grace" is a gospel which preaches the justification of sin instead of the justification of the sinner. When we get that right--that is, the gospel is the justification of the sinner and the condemnation of his sin--then we "orthodox" will also hopefully be humbled enough to reach out compassionately to homosexuals with the gospel, acknowledging that we too have gone astray and would continue to do so, but for the grace of God and his regeneration.

The same issues are rehashed over and over again a...

2009-08-29T17:23:56.032-04:00

The same issues are rehashed over and over again as each denomination falls like a domino. What is needed is a comprehensive statement outlining all the issues with clear eyes and compassion, and not falling into all the garbage routinely put out.

I appreciate where you are coming from, Kevin. Lo...

2009-08-29T15:23:25.637-04:00

I appreciate where you are coming from, Kevin. Loyalty to Christ must take precedence over denominational (or even transdenominational) loyalty.

Kevin, Thanks for the insight, I believe it is t...

2009-08-29T14:19:03.487-04:00

Kevin,
Thanks for the insight, I believe it is time for the RCA to break ties with the ELCA. The ELCA have clearly created a dividing line, with the WELS, and the LCMS also rebuking the ELCA for its actions (they themselves being historically Lutheran) its my hope that other denominations do the same and place themselves in the Biblical camp in regards to this issue.
As for S17lH5IRgOqP083hO4BL.XJ4T0ekyg--
I'll continue to try and love you and pray that God opens your eyes to your pride, lack of spiritual humility, inability to rightly discern the Word of God, self-righteousness, and general lack of the fruits of the spirit.

I'd like to offer a few arguments in regards to your rebuke of Kevin.

You said Kevin lacks discernment, yet we can clearly see that the scripture teaches that sex outside of marriage is sinful - If sex outside of marriage is sinful and the ELCA decided to allow those who are non-celibate practicing homosexuals into ministry without even considering the fact that sex outside of marriage is sinful then the ELCA is endorsing sin. You can argue that 'well we can't get married' but that is irrelevant at this point, since we are commanded by scriture to obey the governing authorities and since the definition of 'marriage' hasn't changed the ELCA should submit to those authorities. Yet the ELCA in its complete hatred for God's sacred Word demonstrated they could care less about what it says.

So, given that heterosexual sex outside of marriage is sinful, and homosexual sex outside of marriage is now endorsed can you tell me why the RCA as a visible representation of the body of Christ should remain in communion with a body who has completely endorsed sinful acts? I've not even begun to argue that homosexuality is sinful, simply that sex outside of marriage is sinful.

And this same, perhaps harsh prayer is one I've been praying for myself every day. But, as a Gay man, I can tell you that I have a deep relationship with God that you presume to understand. You don't Your wrong. God is desperately trying to open your heart.

Yes, you have an erroneous approach. How is that you understand the mind of God, but Kevin and the other conservative Christian denominations do not? The Bible is God's revealed word, its propositions (and their logical conclusions) being infallible provide the rule of faith for his church. It would seem that your more mystical approach to knowing God has clouded your ability to rightly interpret the non-mystical objective interpretation of his clear revelation. I can easily say that God is desperately trying to open up your wicked heart.

Or I may be completely wrong, but at least I am humble enough to remain in communion with you.
Take care. Literally, for your soul

I guess for you, its never time to say 'enough is enough'? When can a denomination so malign the truth of God that we cannot even begin to recognize it from a false church? My friend, you're fooling yourself if you think that the Church of God should remain in communion with apostates who deny the doctrine of repentance. This isn't about gay vs non-gay its about repentance and your churches blatant disregard for the doctrine and its approval of sin.

I hope I didn't misrepresent anything, may God bless His saints.

To S17lH5IRgOqP083hO4BL.XJ4T0ekyg--, You said tha...

2009-08-29T12:32:04.758-04:00

To S17lH5IRgOqP083hO4BL.XJ4T0ekyg--,

You said that you would: "pray that God opens your eyes to your pride, lack of spiritual humility, inability to rightly discern the Word of God, self-righteousness, and general lack of the fruits of the spirit."

All this really says to me from the outside looking in is that you claim to be all the things that Kevin is not, i.e. you are not prideful (yet your description of Kevin, as though you know him, sounds like an ad homenin attack), you are full of spiritual humility and somehow able to discern God's word rightly (yet you give no examples), and that you are not lacking in the fruits of the spirit (but how does attacking someone personally demonstrate this? It all sounds very ungracious to me.)

If all you mean to do is "humbly" attack, (I'm glad you let everyone know how humble you are) then you've accomplished your mission. But if you are seeking to persuade or engage ideas, then it's sound reasons and gracious interaction that will win the day. Please reflect and think it over.

I don't see how there can be communion between tho...

2009-08-29T12:31:04.694-04:00

I don't see how there can be communion between those who think homosexual acts are sinful and those who don't. The disagreement over whether it is sinful or not has too many serious ramifications for churches to be able to stand together in unity. We are not arguing over baptism here, it is life and death stuff.

S17lH5IRgOqP083hO4BL.XJ4T0ekyg-- your personal attack on Kevin is unwarranted and unsubstantiated.

Clearly if the liberal denominations continue 'wal...

2009-08-29T12:23:57.964-04:00

Clearly if the liberal denominations continue 'walking away' from your denomination, then communion has to be broken. The ELCA's recent move impairs that communion, and Matt 18:15-20 comes into play (though we're talking denominations, rather than individuals). Tell them that they are imparing communion, try and get them to come back to God, keep doing it, making it more public as you go along, and then eventually break communion when they show that they have gone so far that they can't be brought back.

Chances are that they will do everything they can to try and make you look like the schismatic group, ignore the warnings and make the communion at such a straining point that it seems silly to keep them in. They may kick out orthodox people in their denomination (at least for some time) and call the rest of the people they are in communion with (and those in their boat trying to get out and swim back) heretical schismatics. At this point don't do what the Anglican community does and give them one more chance: by then you can safely show them to be the ones wanting the split and give them what they want.

Do the split with love and don't make it before it's absolutely necessary and obvious that they cannot be in communion with you. Hopefully you won't have to make it, as they decide not to pull on the ties that allow fellowship and communion, but instead decide to come back to biblical, historic, catholic, orthodox Christianity.

I'll continue to try and love you and pray that Go...

2009-08-29T10:55:40.684-04:00

I'll continue to try and love you and pray that God opens your eyes to your pride, lack of spiritual humility, inability to rightly discern the Word of God, self-righteousness, and general lack of the fruits of the spirit. And this same, perhaps harsh prayer is one I've been praying for myself every day. But, as a Gay man, I can tell you that I have a deep relationship with God that you presume to understand. You don't Your wrong. God is desperately trying to open your heart.
Or I may be completely wrong, but at least I am humble enough to remain in communion with you.
Take care. Literally, for your soul

I still wonder about the affirmation of Packer's a...

2009-08-29T09:31:52.499-04:00

I still wonder about the affirmation of Packer's argument regarding an ethical matter as a 'heretical issue'. I understand the difficulties of the issue, but there are a number of other behaviors that the Bible condemns which many churches tolerate. To be clear, I affirm the necessity of repentance, but where do other behaviors fit into the discussion?